Thread where I drop thoughts

[MrFlibble]

better?

Yes, definitely! ^_^ Thanks!

You know, after some time in academic circles the habit of always explicating your reasoning becomes second nature - or at least, it very well should

[Hallfiry]

As I'm currently transcribing the vocabulary of the German dub of Hogan's Heroes ("Ein Käfig voller Helden"), which is often called "Schnodder-Deutsch" (snotty germany), I've noticed that the perceived humoristic quality of an episode is highly correlated with the amount of exotic vocabulary, rhymed verses and dialogs about the unseen character Kalinke.

Rhyming is a running gag in the German dub of the series. Col. Klink would often cite his lyric manual "Lerne Reimen ohne zu schleimen" ("learn to rhyme without greasing"). Other characters pick up on that, too, either telling him to stop it, or making fun of it.

Misses Kalinke, Klink's cleaning lady is a tool that allows the description of a caricature. She cleans nude in Klink's appartment, aptly guiding the trunk of the vac or brushing everything clean. When she's not working, she's in the bathtub, paints her toenails, drinks egg liqueur and smokes a lot. You get the gist.

The vocabulary is highly influenced by Berlin street jargon. Rainer Brandt, who wrote the dub, has said on multiple occansions that his humoristic dubs are a mix of Berlin jargon, colloqual language, yiddish and some "underground". In a recent interview (and I hope I remember that correctly), he said that in the (60s or early 70s?) he was in the Berlin Sportpalast with a friend to see a theater play or something and in a loge below them, there were some folks who talked very colloquially (with all sorts of sleak phrases, Rotwelsch influence, etc.) and they realized "this is it! That's how people talk. We gotta do dubs that way!", and so Brandt and his colleage Brunnemann dubbed many many movies and series in Germany from the 60s to the 90s, most notably The Persuaders!, all the Bud Spencer & Terence Hill movies, M*A*S*H, Hogan's Heroes and some Belmondo movies.

What I've noticed as pretty striking, is that among the phrases that go into this Schnodderdeutsch, there are often household tips, like putting "Gardener's Pride" into water to keep flowers fresh, or eating garlic with parsley to avoid smell. The first time in my life that I've encountered this type of dialog in a movie was in one of the older Asterix cartoons, where two roman soldiers are shown throughout the film, with one always describing cooking recipes.

So, back to the topic: It seems that when I'm done with my transcription, it is possible to get a good indicator for how funny an episode of the German dub of Hogan's Heroes is, just by looking at the count of interesting words and phrases in it.

[Hallfiry]

Having watched a Bud Spencer movie today (in honor of him, as he has just died, sadly), I think I've understood the concept of Schnodderdeutsch one step further. I noticed that it uses an unusually high ratio of grammatical imperatives, as already suggested in the "household tips" comment above. However I think it is even more general:

Schnodderdeutsch is (or appears to be) a slang of advice. Looking back at what I've seen in Hogan's Heroes, The Persuaders and that Bud Spencer movie, it's clear that one of the core elements of this particular style of speech is commenting almost everything with advice:

"Come in, or the door will get bulges"
"Don't shit your pants, you only go one pair" (that one in slight variations is one of the most common phrases in Schnodderdeutsch)
(Terence Hill leaves his horse behind to talk to some guys) "Don't let yourself get talked into something!" (much more sleak in German: "Lass dich nich anquatschen!")
"Don't bark Schultzi, or you'll be put on a leash"
"Sit down, from standing one gets smaller and smaller"
"Please sit down, with all those medals you must have knee-pain"
"Come in an bring bliss, - one says to the elephant"
"Applecake? But hopefully with canned apples, those aren't so hard!"

"I should have heard on Misses Kalinke!"
-"What does she say?"
"Rather go spread-legged than too narrow-minded through life"
-"But then you can hit the balls too easily!"

You get the scheme.

[Hallfiry]

I'm very confident I've solved the riddle around Spörkes. It appears to be German Sparren (also Sparre, Sparr, Sporr,, etc.). It's a very common word that describes the roof construction of a house. This would suggest that Spörkes means something like "little roof", which very naturally fits modern German "Dach" (roof) for circumflex (and english "roof" beeing used in the same way, iirc). Even better, dialects use a diminutive for a roof in the meaning of a written character, e.g. Bavarian "Dachl". EDIT: I found proof (in the DWB) for the use of Sparren as word for the symbol. Since the middle ages(?), Sparren is used in heraldics for two beams that make a roof shape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_( ... )#Heraldry
This would suggest that Spörkes was written as Λ, while half Krütskes was V and Krüstes is X. Assuming Nothringskes is indeed a circle, this would roughly lead to this number system:

1 I
2 II
3 III
4 O, oo, 8 (?)
5 V
6 Λ
7 Λ I
8 Λ II
9 Λ III
10 X
11 X I

20 XX

EDIT: I admit that a roof structure might also be symbolized by a comb shape, but a Λ seemed easier.

A few little remarks regarding Nothringskes: The DWB suggests that prior to meaning "need", "requirement", "emergency", german Not universally meant "pressure", "compression", "urge to squeeze together". Taking this into account, Nothringskes would translate as "squeezed little circles", which might be an 8, an infiity symbol (oo), or something like overlapping circles.

EDIT:
Looking at it again, it seems more likely, that the system is slightly more sophisticated:
The number 1000 is called Krütskes Uhr, literally "ten hundred", suggesting, that is was not written as DDDDDDDDDD (using D as a plaecholder for half Uhr), but instead XD. (Why does it suggest that? Because the names describe symbols, not numbers.)
Thus meaning that a smaller number before a bigger digit multiplies it. For example 70 might actually be ΛIX, "Spörkes-un-Ehn Krütskes".
The Parz Spörkes (20) that I wrote above would then be IIX.

EDIT: Some thoughts regarding Uhr and holf Uhr: Above I wondered, if holf Uhr might be D and Uhr is (|). This might be even more likely, if they used romand numerals and reassigned |) "500" to 50 and (|) "1000" to 100.

[Hallfiry]

When I recently went through my new town (which is an old one), I took photos of stone grafittis and went into the church and photographed everything I found there aswell. When I checked the photos at home I was surprised to find both, Nothringskes and Spörkes on a 1464 plaque for a deceased Mr. Peter Markhauser. (Also note that it has the very oldish spelling "Mantag" (i.e.Mântag) for Montag.)
For for an edited photo of the plaque see attachment. (the original was extremely dark)

EDIT: Doing some close looking, I think I managed to transcribe the entire plaque. It is written in a contemporary form of the Dialect between upper palatinate and franconia:
1464 | am ~ mantag ~ in ~ der |
geinein ~ wochen ~ starb ~ herr |
peter ~ markhauser ~ dem ~ got ~ gnad

geinen is a difficult word. I assume it's a dialected variant of (ver)gangen(en), but no matter what it is, it means "gone" or "past".
So the text translates as "1464, on monday in the gone week died mister peter markhauser, whom god grace"
Wochen has the typical bavarian -n at the end to avoid a dangling schwa, "der" has a [de]-ligature, "dem" is written as [de]` and gnad didn't fully fit anymore, so [ad] are a ligature, too.
(I wished, I could read geinein as gewein, because then it would be modern franconian gwäjn (gewesen), but I can't see the botton parts conntected there )

EDIT3: https://books.google.de/books?id=MVNmAA ... 22&f=false
THis book has atranscriptions of the very same plate, made in the late 18th century. The geinein word is transcribe as gemein ("same", "common")

EDIT2: Checking the internet I found one graphic that shows that /\ was seven in the late 14th century. So it's not a bit unclear if the one on my photo is 6 or 7 <.<